Curse

_Nihilist_ · May 05, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

It will only strike two adjacent enemies anyway and there are much better skills to do that job.

Read the skill description again, Bill, [[Splinter Weapon (PvE)] hits up to three foes adjacent to target. All of this is getting redundant, though. Some players will prefer GDW for a long-lasting weapon spell, others would rather have the additional AoE support from Splinter Weapon even though you will not have constant coverage.

Jaigoda · May 06, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Okay, so we have two choices... One, bring Brawling Headbutt and kill a lot of your DPS so you can get on-demand KD's and a potential ~150-damage AoE every 5 seconds. Two, bring GDW with a MoP/AP Necro and get like +100 DPS (from GDW and the extra damage you get from autoattacking through the 1.5 seconds you'd need to cast BH) and a bajillion AoE damage from EACH assassin, not just one, with the cost of random, yet very frequent KD's. Honestly, it's not a difficult choice for me, especially considering I'd rather have a Necro for a physical team than a Rit (Barbs, anyone?).

And consider this. The average reflex reactions are in like .25 seconds, and since BH is .75 seconds, that means you'll pretty much never be interupting anything that's 1 second or less. And in HM, everything cast 50% faster.. So that means you're relying purely on prediction (lolz at trying to predict random AI) to actually get an interupt on pretty much anything, and interupts are like the only advantage to on-demand KO's over random KO's that are just as frequent.

Axel Zinfandel · May 06, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

If you are trying to use on-demand KD to interrupt certain skills in -general- PvE you're doing it wrong.

People use BH because it's an easy skill that can provide a KD using any weapon, and in a lot of builds it can KEEP a foe knocked down.

In the more general, broad picture of things, GDW simply works more with the flow of a Locust's Fury build.

Jaigoda · May 06, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

What I was saying is that between on-demand and random KD's, the main advantage for on-damand KD's is you can use them for interupts. Otherwise, random KD's (that occur just as often) are just as useful. And the cast and aftercast of BH is what really hurts it here. It's 1.5 seconds for a single KD, which is like sacrificing about 200-300 damage right there. BH is a great skill, but not for Crit Locusts.

Bill Clinton · May 06, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Read the skill description again, Bill, [[Splinter Weapon (PvE)] hits up to three foes adjacent to target.

You're right, sorry. Though in any case, I still do not feel like that extra one makes up much difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

What I was saying is that between on-demand and random KD's, the main advantage for on-damand KD's is you can use them for interupts. Otherwise, random KD's (that occur just as often) are just as useful. And the cast and aftercast of BH is what really hurts it here. It's 1.5 seconds for a single KD, which is like sacrificing about 200-300 damage right there. BH is a great skill, but not for Crit Locusts.

I'm glad ou said this... I was begining I was the only one who thought this xD

GrimmNinja · May 06, 2009, 07:08 PM // 19:08

hi all

Ok here is how I see it, we got a decent build and a few hero suggestions so here is my input a build and 3 heros.

Player Assassin: 12 Dagger Mastery 12 Critical Strikes

[Locust's [email protected]][Critical Agility][Critical [email protected]]["Save Yourselves!"][For Great Justice!"][Golden Fox [email protected]][Wild [email protected]][Shadow Sanctuary]
(Shadow Sanctuary is optional, can have for extra security)

Now there are a few options for Heroes. I have 2 ideas:

Idea 1

Hero 1: N/any: 11 Curses 10 Blood 10 Soul Reaping.

[Hexers [email protected]][Signet of Lost [email protected]][Dark [email protected]][Order Of [email protected]][Rigor [email protected]][[email protected]][Spiteful [email protected]][Well Of [email protected]]

Hero 2:Mo/Any:11 Divine Favour 10 Healing 10 Smite

[Strength of [email protected]][Judge's [email protected]][Word Of [email protected]][Signet Of [email protected]][Patient [email protected]][Cure [email protected]][Spotless [email protected]][Restore [email protected]]
(any other generic resurrect can be used instead of Restore Life)

Hero 3:N/Rt: 11 Restoration 10 Death 10 Soul Reaping

[Signet Of Lost [email protected]][Animate Bone [email protected]][Animate Bone [email protected]][Death [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][Mend Body and [email protected]][Flesh Of My [email protected]]

===============================================
Idea 2:
Same Player Assassin Build

Hero 1: N/Any 11 Blood 10 Smiting 10 Soul Reaping

[Icy [email protected]][Order Of [email protected]][Dark [email protected]][Strength Of [email protected]][Judge's [email protected]][Signet Of Lost [email protected]][Well Of [email protected]][Mark Of [email protected]]

Heros 2 & 3 can be anything; I prefer 2 Discordway or Sabway Heroes for extra support.

Perfected Shadow · May 07, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

You can shout while you're using [brawling headbutt]. In fact, you can shout anytime:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shout

Yeah but if you're using brawling headbutt, you stop attacking, thus [Dodge This!] won't end, consequently the finales won't trigger. That's what I understand from the game's mechanics back when I used to play. Correct me if that's changed.

If you factor in multiple GDWs, I think clinton's one had multiple locust sins, GDW will keep shit down very often AND you won't even need to have awesome reflexes to interrupt HM casts with a 3/4 sec skill.

Imo the maintainability and KD of GDW makes it superior to splinter weapon. It has neat bonus damage to boot as well.

Back to Locust's fury, I think it's even more brainless than MS/DB lol. Basically you just maintain LC, CA, SY, and spam Dodge this. The buff bishes will do all the work. That's a win for me.

Paul Dawg · May 07, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

BH is a great skill, but not for Crit Locusts.

I'm really not seeing why it's a great skill for other builds if it's not a great skill for "crit locusts." It works best when you have near-endless adrenaline so you can keep re-applying it. And near-endless adrenaline is basically the only reason why you'd want to be a "crit locust" in the first place.

Quote:

Yeah but if you're using brawling headbutt, you stop attacking, thus ["Dodge This!"] won't end, consequently the finales won't trigger. That's what I understand from the game's mechanics back when I used to play. Correct me if that's changed.

Not following this either. When you shout ["dodge this!"], it affects your next attack. It's not going to affect [brawling headbutt], because [brawling headbutt] is a touch skill. But as long as you get in another attack before the shout ends (and you have 16-20 seconds, depending on your Norn rank), it'll work. Then rinse and repeat.

Bill Clinton · May 07, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I'm really not seeing why it's a great skill for other builds if it's not a great skill for "crit locusts." It works best when you have near-endless adrenaline so you can keep re-applying it. And near-endless adrenaline is basically the only reason why you'd want to be a "crit locust" in the first place.

Locusts fury isnt only good for gaining lots of adrenaline. And thats not really what its being used for in this suggested build. Another place where it shines is the way it makes great useage of skills which increase attack damage (such as those already listed earlier). The point is that, sure, with a crit locust you can keep re-aplying brawling headbutt. But that doesnt make sense when you can slap on a different skill that works passivley and knockdowns more often. The build takes advantage of the constant stream of adrenline by using Dodge this, it doesnt need headbutt too.

Jaigoda · May 07, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

BH is inferior to GDW on this build simply because of how effing fast you attack, giving you just as frequent KD's while you attack instead the crappy cast and aftercast of using a skill. BH also work well on warriors because they can make it 3-second KD's and can't get more than a 33% IAS (and they have [Dragon Slash]). It's not that BH is a bad skill at all, it's just that GDW gets its efficiency multiplied several times over within this build since it has (from what I know) the fastest attack speed in the game.

Paul Dawg · May 07, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

It's clear at this point that neither side is going to convince the other about [brawling headbutt] vs. [great dwarf weapon]. I'm just going to make one last point against [great dwarf weapon], and then I'm going to leave it alone (since the idea of a [locust's fury] build doesn't stand or fall on this debate): Not only is the KD sloppy, but lotsa times you're going to be KD-ing a foe who is already down--effectively wasting your skill, since you can't reapply KD until the foe has gotten back up.

How often can you expect that to happen? Earlier in the thread I calculated that your chance of KD is about 50% per second. (People had been overstating the odds because they misunderstood the chance both of double-striking and of KD-ing with [great dwarf weapon].) But since you're locking onto a single foe, your chance of KD is really only 50% FOR THE FIRST SECOND; thereafter, the chance drops substantially because your foe may already be down. I'm figuring 25% for the 2nd second, 37.5% for the 3rd second--and thereafter my math skills aren't good enough to complete the calculation.

At any rate, it's not nearly as high as it seems just by reading the skill descriptions and not thinking about the consequences.

Perfected Shadow · May 08, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Not following this either. When you shout [Dodge This!], it affects your next attack. It's not going to affect [Brawling Headbutt], because [Brawling Headbutt] is a touch skill. But as long as you get in another attack before the shout ends (and you have 16-20 seconds, depending on your Norn rank), it'll work. Then rinse and repeat.

My point was that you will trigger the finales (and the bonus dmg buffs as well) more often IF you keep attacking instead of bringing and using 3/4 sec. cast BH.

_Nihilist_ · May 08, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Grimm Ninja, a few suggestions on your Builds:

On your A/W player build, drop [Shadow Sanctuary] for ["Dodge This!"]. While your Hero Builds have condition removal, why Blind yourself for 5 seconds to get additional armor (CritAgi already gives some bonus armor, you won't get the full amount because armor-stacking has a limit) and HP regen? "Dodge This!" makes your next attack unblockable (yay for not needing GFS/Wild Strike, which won't trigger a Dual Attack, even with Locust's) and adds bonus damage. 4A cost, which means it is going to recharge/be ready for use nearly every single attack you make considering your use of "FGJ!" and Dark Fury. Methinks it would ramp up your damage output considerably.

On your N/* Hero, drop [Well of Blood] and [Hexer's Vigor]; the Well will use up corpses that your MM Hero needs (considering Well has a 1sec cast time and both Minion-creation spells have a 3sec cast time) and you have more non-Hex skills on your bar than Hex skills which makes Hexer's Vigor near useless. If you are going to run an Orders Necro, run an Orders Necro, if you are going to run an AP/MoP+Barbs Necro, then run an AP/MoP+Barbs Necro. Trying to pull off a combo Orders/Barbs is going to result in your Necro either not casting Curses because it stays back to sac/Orders, or the Necro running in to cast and pulling aggro, which could end up overtaxing your Monk (with your MM using Resto from its Rit secondary, this might not be a problem - needs to be tested).

In regards to the Monk Healer/Smite-buffer, if the Holy damage from Judge's Insight overrides the Physical damage from your Dagger attacks, Order of Pain and Barbs are going to be useless, as they require Physical damage to trigger their bonuses. Also, why 11 Divine / 10 Heal? The extra point in Divine adds 3.2 to each spell you cast on an ally, but since you only have Healing Prayers to be used during combat (since you'll be maintaining SoH, and Judge's Insight is going to be pre-cast before aggro), wouldn't it be better to go 11 Healing / 10 Divine? I think you'd get more Heal-bang for your Buck.

Just a few things to think about.

Bill Clinton · May 08, 2009, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

It's clear at this point that neither side is going to convince the other about [brawling headbutt] vs. [great dwarf weapon]. I'm just going to make one last point against [great dwarf weapon], and then I'm going to leave it alone (since the idea of a [locust's fury] build doesn't stand or fall on this debate): Not only is the KD sloppy, but lotsa times you're going to be KD-ing a foe who is already down--effectively wasting your skill, since you can't reapply KD until the foe has gotten back up.

How often can you expect that to happen? Earlier in the thread I calculated that your chance of KD is about 50% per second. (People had been overstating the odds because they misunderstood the chance both of double-striking and of KD-ing with [great dwarf weapon].) But since you're locking onto a single foe, your chance of KD is really only 50% FOR THE FIRST SECOND; thereafter, the chance drops substantially because your foe may already be down. I'm figuring 25% for the 2nd second, 37.5% for the 3rd second--and thereafter my math skills aren't good enough to complete the calculation.

At any rate, it's not nearly as high as it seems just by reading the skill descriptions and not thinking about the consequences.

I know you said this was your last point and you dont think anyone will convince the other, but i'm going to pick at a few things you said here.

First, when you say ''lotsa times you're going to be KD-ing a foe who is already down--effectively wasting your skill'' Its not really 'wasting' anything because you are not expending any additional effort each time you knock down. Yes, you are likely to strike them with a 'good' hit of [great dwarf weapon] while they are on the floor, since they are down for two seconds each time - but nothing negative is born from that. Its just an unlucky hit you can forget about.

And second, your maths simply doesnt work out, or is irrelevant. While the foe is stood up you have a 50% chance of knocking down every second, that is all that matters. The second they are stood up again that percentage will return to 50% (its actually a little higher than that).
This means that, really, if you want to be pessmistic about it and take the bare minimum - you're knocking down your target every other second while they are in stood up with [great dwarf weapon].

Now lets look at [brawling headbutt]. Since you're an assassin you're not knocking the target down for longer than two seconds because you dont have stonefists. Lets be pessimistic again. It will take three seconds of striking to gain enough adrenaline to use it the first time. Then 1.5 seconds to cast [brawling headbutt] (including after-cast) and start attacking again. Bear in mind that by using [brawling headbutt] you will gain no adrenaline. The target is then KD'd for two seconds, and you can use those seconds to partially recharge [brawling headbutt]. But you will still need one more second of striking while the foe is stood up to fully re-charge it. Then take another second of casting [brawling headbutt] before the foe is down again.

This means that in the worst of situations: [brawling headbutt] gives the foe a total time of two seconds of being stood up before hitting the deck again. And [great dwarf weapon] gives them two seconds of being stood up before hitting the deck again.
The worst-case probabilties are mostly the same. Except that [great dwarf weapon] offers immediate knockdown without having to interupt your stream of damage or adrenaline gain and offers greater chance of producing continuos knock-lock than [brawling headbutt].

Paul Dawg · May 10, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Yeah, I know I said I'd leave this topic alone at this point, but I have to correct this misconception, since it has been repeated several times on this thread. There's no aftercast delay with [brawling headbutt]. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. The wiki entry on aftercast is extremely vague, and I agree that one would THINK, based on the crappy entry on aftercast in the wiki, that [brawling headbutt] should have an aftercast delay--but it doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Then 1.5 seconds to cast [brawling headbutt] (including after-cast) and start attacking again.

Jaigoda · May 12, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

You would have a 75% chance to have KD'd on your second hit, not 25%, lol. And one thing to remember, is that GDW is going to offer about 25-35 DPS, whereas BH will only add, say, 15-25 DPS; plus, that .75 seconds to cast the thing would be time where you could have been attacking, adding an extra, like, 100 damage with all the buffs. If you're correct in saying that BH doesn't have an aftercast (which I'm still unsure of), then it's not as terrible as I thought ('cause before you were literally gimping yourself of around 100 DPS), but it's still not the DPS machine that it is with GDW. The point of this build in my opinion is not for lots of KD's but for exploitation of damage buffs to easily hit 150+ DPS. BH is more of a damage nerf, for the small benefit of more-easily controlled KD's (though GDW does KD just as often). It's just not worth it in the grand scheme of things.

Super Igor · May 12, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

[asuran scan] + [great dwarf weapon] = win

Also, no need to waste a pve slot for [brawling headbutt] when you have someone casting GDW on you....

Paul Dawg · May 12, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Your math is wrong. If [great dwarf weapon] gives you about a 50% chance to KD with this build--and we've gone over the reasons why it's only 50%, I don't want to rehash that--then there's a 50% chance that you won't be able to KD on your second attack because your foe will already be down. That means you really only have about a 25% chance to KD on your second attack.

And Igor, we're going around in circles: I don't want someone to cast [great dwarf weapon] on me precisely because I want them to cast [splinter weapon (pve)] or [nightmare weapon] instead. THAT'S why I'd rather use [brawling headbutt].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

You would have a 75% chance to have KD'd on your second hit, not 25%, lol.

Jaigoda · May 13, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Your math is wrong. If [great dwarf weapon] gives you about a 50% chance to KD with this build--and we've gone over the reasons why it's only 50%, I don't want to rehash that--then there's a 50% chance that you won't be able to KD on your second attack because your foe will already be down. That means you really only have about a 25% chance to KD on your second attack.

And Igor, we're going around in circles: I don't want someone to cast [great dwarf weapon] on me precisely because I want them to cast [splinter weapon (pve)] or [nightmare weapon] instead. THAT'S why I'd rather use [brawling headbutt].

How the hell does that make sense? Your chances of KD'ing is going to increase each time you hit until they get knocked down. It's never going to go down. So the first second, you have a ~50% chance of KD'ing. Then, if you didn't hit, according to rules of probability, you will have a 75% chance of KD'ing by the second (2nd) second. In other words, you'll have a 75+% chance of KD'ing after 2 seconds.

And [great dwarf weapon] has a HUGE advantage over any other weapon spells solely due to its duration. SW and NW won't last more than, say, 2 seconds, before their effect runs out, which leads to much less efficiency for both the 'Sin and the person casting them. Plus, let's face it: Rits aren't going to be as useful when you could have put in a necro with Barbs and Mark of Pain instead.

It comes down to whether you want retarded amounts of damage or more reliable KD's. To me, it's not much of a choice, but to each his own.

Paul Dawg · May 13, 2009, 03:47 AM // 03:47

OK, your cumulative chance of KD is about 75% AFTER two attacks. That's not the same thing as saying that your chance of KD is 75% ON the second attack, as you stated ("You would have a 75% chance to have KD'd on your second hit, not 25%, lol"). Remember, this is already including the double-strike chance of [locust's fury]. (You don't QUAD-strike.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Your chances of KD'ing is going to increase each time you hit until they get knocked down. It's never going to go down. So the first second, you have a ~50% chance of KD'ing. Then, if you didn't hit, according to rules of probability, you will have a 75% chance of KD'ing by the second (2nd) second. In other words, you'll have a 75+% chance of KD'ing after 2 seconds.